 |
| Twice the engines for half the price? |
The Swiss Gripen purchase is turning into a bit of a drama...
After the Gripen E was selected and approved, but funding wasn't, now the Eurofighter has thrown a wrench into the works by offering 22 used Typhoons for half the price!
This seems like a bargain at first glance, as the Typhoon is certainly an impressive fighter design. The Swiss might find that the Typhoons might not be such a bargain however, depending on how much it will cost to get those Typhoons up to more modern "Tranche 3" capability (AESA radar, full ground attack capability, etc). There is also the question as to the Typhoon's long term operation costs.
This has already happened once, with Dassault offering 18 Rafales for the cost 22 Gripen Es. A closer look still led to a Gripen decision, however.
What does Canada have to gain with all this? First of all, it means that Eurofighter may be willing to make Canada a very attractive deal as well. Considering its traditionally high cost is one of the Typhoon's weaknesses, more aggressive pricing could indeed put it at the top of the list for Canada as well.
The other option is to step up and take Switzerland's position. Saab needs a partner to help develop and build the Gripen E, while Canada needs fighters. With nearly triple the potential Swiss buy, Canada's involvement would seal the deal on the Gripen E/F's development and production.
This could be interesting!
I don't think upgrading these tranch 1 typhoons to tranch 3 level makes a whole lot of sense. Their role is to patrol the swiss air space and the tranch 1 models are fit for the job.
ReplyDeleteThe mechanical captor-C radar has a range of about 180 km and can track 20 targets simultaneously. Thats more than enough, given that Switzerland is only 220 km wide and 350 km in length. The plane carries short and long range air to air missiles. For ground attack, you can integrate the Israeli litening III targeting pod and drop paveway bombs.
Sweden needs partners in order to develop the Gripen NG. I am sure Canada would be welcome because of its heritage and know how in aerospace technologies.
Good point about the Tranche 1 Typhoon. It may indeed be "good enough" for Switerland's current needs. The Swiss still have F-18s (newer than Canada's) for any sort of ground attack role. I assume these F-18s will need replacement too eventually, preferably with a common platform to their air defence choice, I assume.
DeleteOne thing is for sure, it certainly seems like a buyers market when it comes to fighter jets right now.
"buyers market" It sure is.
DeleteJust think, Dassault was desperate to sell the Rafale to India because otherwise they may have to shut down. They agreed to produce 18 Rafale. The residual 108 Rafale shall be produced by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). Dassault won the competition but the deal still isn't signed. Why?
"But negotiations between the Indian government and Dassault are at a standstill because Dassault said it can't be held responsible for the 108 aircraft made by HAL, the Express reported. Dassault said it will supply manufacturing kits and equipment to HAL on time but after which the contract with HAL will take over and Dassault will play no further role.
The Express said India's Ministry of Defense is pushing for Dassault to be solely responsible for the sale and delivery of all 126 aircraft."
http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2013/04/11/Dassault-and-India-in-Rafale-deal-standoff/UPI-95651365652920/
Dassault is to be held responsible for Rafale produced by HAL in India? That's a crazy!
You can bet your but that Canada could get a similar deal for its new fighters.
"I don't think upgrading these tranch 1 typhoons to tranch 3 level makes a whole lot of sense. Their role is to patrol the swiss air space and the tranch 1 models are fit for the job."
Delete"Good point about the Tranche 1 Typhoon. It may indeed be "good enough" for Switerland's current needs. The Swiss still have F-18s (newer than Canada's) for any sort of ground attack role. I assume these F-18s will need replacement too eventually, preferably with a common platform to their air defence choice, I assume. "
Not really. The Swiss F/A-18C/D lost their Ground-Attack and Reconnaissance capabilities when their where updated recently (partial Mid Life Update focusing on Air to Air capabilities only, due to cost issues). We refer to them as "F-18" and not "F/A-18" anymore. The acquisition of the new Gripen fighters is supposed to regain this air-to-air and reco capability.
Anyway, due to heavy operational costs the EADS offer has never been considered seriously, as the previous Dassault "bargain" due to its limited number of aircraft.
It is also to be noted that the new fighter acquisition in Switzerland is a bit unconventional, as it is the Swiss population (unlike other countries) that will ultimately decide if the Gripen will be bought or not.
Thanks, rem.
DeleteI wasn't aware of the Swiss F-18's current state of updates. Thanks for clearing that up. It certainly looks like this "Typhoon deal" doesn't look very probable.
It's going to be interesting to see what happens with the referendum. Not many countries get the chance to have a direct say in the fighter procurement process.
"Not really. The Swiss F/A-18C/D lost their Ground-Attack and Reconnaissance capabilities when their where updated recently (partial Mid Life Update focusing on Air to Air capabilities only, due to cost issues). We refer to them as "F-18" and not "F/A-18" anymore. The acquisition of the new Gripen fighters is supposed to regain this air-to-air and reco capability."
ReplyDeleteThat's just not true. The Swiss bought the F-18 for the air superiority role to begin with because Switzerland does not need any ground attack aircraft. Of course the F-18s can also be used for ground attack missions if Switzerland wanted to. The acquisition of new aircraft is intended to replace the F-5 tigers, which are still being operated by Switzerland.
"Anyway, due to heavy operational costs the EADS offer has never been considered seriously, as the previous Dassault "bargain" due to its limited number of aircraft."
That's actually not true. The Swiss government said, it didn't consider the eurofighter offer because it didn't want to have any second hand aircraft. This turned into a huge scandal about the procurement process and consequently, the Swiss wanted to hold a referendum on the acquisition of the airplanes.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete"Of course the F-18s can also be used for ground attack missions if Switzerland wanted to."
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely. However, and as previously said, the mid life update (Upgrade 25) focused on Air-to-Air capabilities only.
"[the fleet] must be prepared for the second part of its 30-year service life… to reduce costs, their modernization will be undertaken in parallel with those of other countries. However, because of cost issues, Swiss F/A-18s will not equipped for air-to-ground missions, nor for aerial reconnaissance."
See the source here.
"The acquisition of new aircraft is intended to replace the F-5 tigers, which are still being operated by Switzerland."
The TTE program has been delayed for so many years that it has become relevant in the Hornet replacement. Here's a quote from the Security commission report from the Federal chambers (August 2012):
"Given that the new aircraft will not be acquired before 2018 and it will not be fully operational for several years, the project does not concern the Tiger replacement, but also the F/A-18 replacement."
In practice, this means that additional Gripen are very likely to be acquired to replace the Hornet fleet.
(The above roughly translated from the official report, available here in French)
"That's actually not true. The Swiss government said, it didn't consider the eurofighter offer because it didn't want to have any second hand aircraft."
That is one of the reason. But everyone living in Switzerland knows that the Army shrinking budget would prefer a cheap aircraft to operate. The above report also mentions that complete life cycle costs were determinant in the choice of the aircraft.
"This turned into a huge scandal about the procurement process and consequently, the Swiss wanted to hold a referendum on the acquisition of the airplanes."
The referendum has nothing to do with the EADS or Dassault new offers. People from left parties or group opposing the army would oppose any aircraft acquisition, as it was the case in the F/A-18 twenty years ago.
Let me also mention that the original tender was supposed to be a fly away competition between ready aircraft. Instead the Swiss government has chosen to buy an aircraft, the Gripen NG, that is under development and effectively doesn't exist at the present moment. No, the procurement process in Switzerland has turned into a scandal and that's why the Swiss people were so eager to hold a referendum on the acquisition of these airplanes.
Delete"No, the procurement process in Switzerland has turned into a scandal and that's why the Swiss people were so eager to hold a referendum on the acquisition of these airplanes."
DeleteThis is absolutely not true. People (tax payers) will vote on allowing a special fund to be allocated every year for 10 years to acquire the new aircraft (Swiss laws don't allow this normally), but this is unrelated to the choice of the aircraft. Sign of a referendum were already visible way before the aircraft was chosen.
I do however concede that rules were "slightly" changed in game, but Sweden successfully demonstrated that the Gripen NG was on track and on schedule, and removed any associated economical risks by a framework agreement and a fixed price.
It is indeed true. Referenda are not held in Switzerland on every government decision. The Swiss people have to initiate the referendum (Volksinitiative; initiative populaire). That is they have to collect 100000 signatures for holding a referendum. That's quite a lot in a country with 8 million inhabitants.
Deletebhigr> What you are trying to say is that Swiss people are holding a referendum because they don't agree with the choice of the aircraft, which is not the case.
DeleteSwiss people will hold a referendum because they don't agree that the fund for the Gripen acquisition needs cuts in other federal Departments (economy, education, ...). In case the referendum is approved, the Army isn't going to choose the Eurofighter or the Rafale instead. The aircraft will simply not be bought at all, and the whole TTE program will be shut down.
"bhigr> What you are trying to say is that Swiss people are holding a referendum because they don't agree with the choice of the aircraft, which is not the case."
DeleteYup, that's what I am saying.
"Swiss people will hold a referendum because they don't agree that the fund for the Gripen acquisition needs cuts in other federal Departments (economy, education, ...)"
No, funding cuts in other departments are no issue in the referendum.
"In case the referendum is approved, the Army isn't going to choose the Eurofighter or the Rafale instead."
The referendum is about the Gripen deal, whether the people approve or it or not. Nothing more and nothing less.
"The aircraft will simply not be bought at all, and the whole TTE program will be shut down."
No, that's simply not true. The referendum is not about whether new fighters are going to be bought at all. It is strictly about the Gripen deal. This is no referendum about any other aircraft.
You have misrepresented this issue in several ways and you seem to do this consistently.
"The referendum is about the Gripen deal, whether the people approve or it or not. Nothing more and nothing less."
Deletebhigr > The whole point of the referendum is agreeing or not on acquiring a new aircraft to replace the F-5 (which occurs to be the Gripen). The type of that aircraft is orthogonal of the vote. Whether the Rafale or Eurofighter would have been chosen instead, the referendum would be held anyway.
Vu que le nouvel appareil ne sera pas acquis avant 2018 et qu’il ne sera pas pleinement opérationnel avant plusieurs années, le projet ne porte de facto plus uniquement sur le remplacement des Tiger, mais aussi sur le remplacement des F/A-18.
ReplyDelete"Given that the new machine won't be acquired before 2018 and that it won't be completely operational within several years, the project de facto no longer (ne...plus) merely (uniquement) concerns the replacement of the tigers, but also (mai aussi) the replacement of the F/A-18."
Your translation is not correct. Even this passage clearly mentions that the new fighter is supposed to replace the tigers.
You are correct. I originally wanted to insert an "only", but missed it on the preview.
Delete"[...] the project does not concern the Tiger replacement only, but also the Hornet replacement".